DEBATKINI
A debate on the future of democracy in Malaysia turned into a showdown
on the concept of ‘Islamic state' as MCA senator Gan Ping Sieu and PAS
Parit Buntar MP Mujahid Yusof Rawa squared off on the issue.
Locking horns in the first of Malaysiakini's Debatkini series in English, Gan followed his party line almost to a tee by raising concerns that "PAS hudud" will "change the basic fabric of the country".
The forum, titled Is Malaysian democracy moving forward?, had Kota Belud MP Abdul Rahman Dahlan of Umno and Gan on the BN side, with Mujahid of PAS and and Subang MP R Sivarasa of PKR on the Pakatan Rakyat side.
While
Gan had alluded to this in his opening remarks, Mujahid's answer to a
question from the audience on apostasy appeared to have opened the
floodgates.
Speaking to a full house at the Kuala Lumpur and Selangor Chinese Assembly Hall in Kuala Lumpur, the PAS MP, who received tremendous support from the mostly non-Malay audience, said he believes "Islam respects choice".
"I believe we need more intellectual discussion (on apostasy). It is in the essence of Islamic teaching, but it is an interpretation.
"I personally believe, based on my knowledge on history and all that... that apostasy is not about leaving the faith. In the historical context, it is about going against the system, about being a traitor. That needs to be redefined." he told an audience of about 300 people.
"You must choose (your faith) with your own conscience and if you do it with respect for the law, then there is no issue with apostasy. The issue is people using apostasy as a political tool for their narrow interests, on both sides."
Gan
took up most of the time allotted to him after that to attack PAS on
its Islamic state aspirations, prompting Mujahid to speak out of turn to
set the record straight.
Gan said alarm bells rang in the PAS-led states of Kelantan, though its hudud enactment has not been implemented, and Kedah's recently-introduced ouster clause to disallow judicial review of fatwa.
"(PAS) is saying hudud law cannot be implemented because Umno is afraid of MCA... I am very concerned about this...Imagine the pressure on the PM and my colleagues in BN when they say Umno cannot implement the hudud.
"I believe Islam is moderate and there is no compulsion. But if you want to impose your values and way of life, then please stay away," he said.
A
lawyer by training, Gan said the Islamic criminal system would be a
"nightmare" as it would accord different punishments for the same crime,
depending on whether the convict is Muslim or not.
Cutting Gan off, Mujahid said that there was "no such thing as PAS hudud" - to have Gan shooting back by saying that this statement was not "born out of fact".
'You won't like and hate everything in a democracy'
Holding his ground, the PAS MP said while PAS has aspirations, it stood by the need to do things "democratically".
"In
Kelantan and Terengganu (the hudud enactments) were introduced
democratically and you may not like this, but in a democracy you won't
like and hate everything," Mujahid said.
"We have come to a stage where (we see) the relations between Islam and the state are not in the formative manner but in a substantive manner, injecting Islam into nationhood, the state.
"This is the biggest leap that PAS has gone through. Whether MCA or Umno like it, it is their problem. We are progressive... Islamists have put themselves into the democratic process," he said, citing how the Egypt president, who is from an Islamic party, was democratically elected.
Admitting
that such a leap has created "organisational problems", Mujahid
insisted that PAS understood the need for "rejuvenation" to put itself
into a more contemporary scope.
"We believe there is no separation between Islam and democracy."
Backing his colleague, PKR's Sivarasa said that it was unreasonable for Gan to continue to attack Pakatan on the differing views of its members on hudud.
"Our common framework does not have the Islamic state... Coalitions around the world work like that. A communist party can sit with a middle-centre party without the communist party having to stop being communist. That's politics 101!" Sivarasa said to cheers.
A lawyer by profession, Sivarasa, who had worked on high profile conversion cases, added that incidents of body snatching that Gan had raised have occurred only in the Umno-controlled states.
"Let's move on. Stop playing the bogey. It doesn't exist except at the back of your mind and you need to exorcise it," he told Gan.
Locking horns in the first of Malaysiakini's Debatkini series in English, Gan followed his party line almost to a tee by raising concerns that "PAS hudud" will "change the basic fabric of the country".
The forum, titled Is Malaysian democracy moving forward?, had Kota Belud MP Abdul Rahman Dahlan of Umno and Gan on the BN side, with Mujahid of PAS and and Subang MP R Sivarasa of PKR on the Pakatan Rakyat side.
While
Gan had alluded to this in his opening remarks, Mujahid's answer to a
question from the audience on apostasy appeared to have opened the
floodgates.Speaking to a full house at the Kuala Lumpur and Selangor Chinese Assembly Hall in Kuala Lumpur, the PAS MP, who received tremendous support from the mostly non-Malay audience, said he believes "Islam respects choice".
"I believe we need more intellectual discussion (on apostasy). It is in the essence of Islamic teaching, but it is an interpretation.
"I personally believe, based on my knowledge on history and all that... that apostasy is not about leaving the faith. In the historical context, it is about going against the system, about being a traitor. That needs to be redefined." he told an audience of about 300 people.
'The issue is using apostasy as a political tool'
"You must choose (your faith) with your own conscience and if you do it with respect for the law, then there is no issue with apostasy. The issue is people using apostasy as a political tool for their narrow interests, on both sides."
Gan
took up most of the time allotted to him after that to attack PAS on
its Islamic state aspirations, prompting Mujahid to speak out of turn to
set the record straight. Gan said alarm bells rang in the PAS-led states of Kelantan, though its hudud enactment has not been implemented, and Kedah's recently-introduced ouster clause to disallow judicial review of fatwa.
"(PAS) is saying hudud law cannot be implemented because Umno is afraid of MCA... I am very concerned about this...Imagine the pressure on the PM and my colleagues in BN when they say Umno cannot implement the hudud.
"I believe Islam is moderate and there is no compulsion. But if you want to impose your values and way of life, then please stay away," he said.
A
lawyer by training, Gan said the Islamic criminal system would be a
"nightmare" as it would accord different punishments for the same crime,
depending on whether the convict is Muslim or not. Cutting Gan off, Mujahid said that there was "no such thing as PAS hudud" - to have Gan shooting back by saying that this statement was not "born out of fact".
'You won't like and hate everything in a democracy'
Holding his ground, the PAS MP said while PAS has aspirations, it stood by the need to do things "democratically".
"In
Kelantan and Terengganu (the hudud enactments) were introduced
democratically and you may not like this, but in a democracy you won't
like and hate everything," Mujahid said. "We have come to a stage where (we see) the relations between Islam and the state are not in the formative manner but in a substantive manner, injecting Islam into nationhood, the state.
"This is the biggest leap that PAS has gone through. Whether MCA or Umno like it, it is their problem. We are progressive... Islamists have put themselves into the democratic process," he said, citing how the Egypt president, who is from an Islamic party, was democratically elected.
Admitting
that such a leap has created "organisational problems", Mujahid
insisted that PAS understood the need for "rejuvenation" to put itself
into a more contemporary scope. "We believe there is no separation between Islam and democracy."
Backing his colleague, PKR's Sivarasa said that it was unreasonable for Gan to continue to attack Pakatan on the differing views of its members on hudud.
"Our common framework does not have the Islamic state... Coalitions around the world work like that. A communist party can sit with a middle-centre party without the communist party having to stop being communist. That's politics 101!" Sivarasa said to cheers.
A lawyer by profession, Sivarasa, who had worked on high profile conversion cases, added that incidents of body snatching that Gan had raised have occurred only in the Umno-controlled states.
"Let's move on. Stop playing the bogey. It doesn't exist except at the back of your mind and you need to exorcise it," he told Gan.
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